Welcome to the My Private Network Podcast!
Today's Expert Guest
Michael Scott
Managing Director
SAF Group
Today's Questions of Interest
- 2:18 What is your story Mike and what drew you into private lending?
- 5:45 What do you recommend for a portfolio?
- 6:22 Why would you recommend that to investors?
- 6:55 How is an investor, who's looking to do something within the 60/40 and the fixed income part of their portfolio, going to benefit versus traditional investments?
- 8:00 If you're investing in a private credit fund, what are the risks?
- 9:09 What does loan to value mean?
- 10:09 When we look at the private lending market versus the public market, what's the big difference?
- 12:06 So where would you say your sweet spot is on loan size?
- 12:56 What makes you different than the other firms in this space?
- 14:38 Could you give us input on the importance of the funnel?
- 17:14 Could you tell us about the depth and experience of your team?
- 18:05 Why are corporate borrowers choosing SAF group instead of just going to the bank?
- 21:41 What does a return profile look like for an individual investor?
- 23:36 How are decreasing rates going to affect the marketplace for private lending?
- 25:44 As we look at private credit market, what are your concerns in the market today?
- 29:58 What should the experience be like for reasonable returns over the next two to three years?
- 32:42 Final thoughts
Transcript
Bob Simpson: Greetings listeners. I'm Bob Simpson, your host, and welcome to another episode of My Private Network podcast. Today, we are once again, shining the light on private lending. Now, when we talk about private lending, we often use the mantra, "be the bank." Why settle for meager savings rates when you can invest directly in companies and enjoy much higher returns.
Our platform offers diversification through expertly managed loan portfolios, providing investors with opportunities typically reserved for the banks, but enough preamble today. We're thrilled. To welcome a true expert in the private lending area, none other than Michael Scott, Managing Director at SAF Group, joining us from his Vancouver office.
SAF Group is a Calgary based alternative capital provider. It offers institutional quality private credit strategies with a focus on direct lending, characterized By strong collateral and robust covenants. So today's discussion really fits into the category of investing for income. So, Hey Mike, how you doing?
Michael Scott: I'm well, thank you. How are you?
Bob Simpson: Yeah. Thanks for joining us today. Now I've been reading a little bit about your 10th anniversary roots and boots party that's taking place at the end of September right. And I've been feeling like, Hey, I can't make it. I'm, I think I'm going to miss out on the party of the year, but I think you've got lots of things to celebrate on at your 10th anniversary, extravaganza there.
Michael Scott: We do. Yeah, certainly 10 years is impressive. So we're looking forward to bringing together a lot of our, our clients and investors and stakeholders. And, sorry to hear that you won't be able to join the party, Bob. Thank you.
Bob Simpson: Yeah, well, you know, sometimes you get a pick and choose and things come up and get in the way. So before we delve into the intricacies of private lending, let's just talk about your personal journey and that of SAF Group's and some of the things that you might be discussing at the 10th anniversary. And let's start with what drew you Into getting involved in private lending in the first place.
Michael Scott: Sure. Prior to joining SAF, I worked for two of the Canadian chartered banks, just over 20 years. Split my time at those banks between both corporate banking, and leveraged finance. And then, you know, during my career, I also spent some time on the other side of the desk, as I call it, where instead of being a lender, I was on the borrower side.
Which in hindsight, as I pursued my lending career, certainly proved to be an invaluable experience. To answer your question though, Bob, I think the short answer is that the Canadian banking landscape is really changing, and these changes are all centered around increasing and more burdensome regulatory capital requirements, and I'm sure we'll dive into this, in more detail today.
But the short answer is these changes are making Canadian banks shift their business model. Away from lending, which is more capital intensive and generates interest revenue, to focus more on non lending or non capital intensive services or advisory activities, which generate fee based revenue streams.
I have. Always been a lender, with my, time at the Canadian banks and certainly, started to feel, that pressure the last number of years. And as it was becoming more increasingly restrictive and burdensome, it was obvious to me that this regulatory shift was going to continue to accelerate versus something that was going to be temporary.
So having known one of the co founders of SAF group, Ryan Dunfield, for 15 years, we had often talked about when the right time would be to launch a diversified private credit fund in Canada. And as I saw the regulatory headwinds for the Canadian banks growing, it just presented a great opportunity to join SAF's established private equity platform.
Bob Simpson: Hmm. Yeah, no, that's cool. We all have experiences. The other day I was sitting in an office and I was waiting for a recommendation from a professional. And as I was sitting there, I thought I need to ask this guy some questions cause I have to make a decision. And I thought, what do I need to ask him? And I think we can look at today's talk through the same lens.
I said, number one, what is it that you recommend? Number two, why are you recommending this to me? Number three, how am I going to benefit from this recommendation? What are the risks? Number four. And what will I experience over the next two to three years based on that recommendation? If I know the answer to those five things, it occurred to me, I can give you an answer.
But if I don't know the answer to those five things, it's much more difficult. So if we sort of start there. You know, we are big proponents of diversification. We understand the importance of spreading risk. That's why we collaborate with a wide array of private lenders and really trying to find diversification, diversification by style, diversification by many, many other things.
If we start with the question, and, you know, we pretty much know the answer. It's private credit, but you know, what are you recommending, you know, in the seat that you're sitting in right now, what would you recommend to individual investors? And why would, why would you look at that? But let's start with what would you recommend?
Michael Scott: Look, it's a good question, Bob. I think, you know, admittedly I'm somewhat biased. But, no, as we look at the traditional 60/40 portfolio, I think its compelling. And it will go to some of your other questions around why and how you benefit and the risk profile. But, you know, certainly, we believe that there's a, there's an, there's a role for private credit in any prudent investors portfolio.
Bob Simpson: So number two, why would you recommend that to investors?
Michael Scott: Yeah, look, this is an asset class with low correlation to other asset classes. It generates a very nice, stable, consistent cash yield, relatively low volatility. This is an investment where, you know, you're going to see your net asset value, very stable from quarter to quarter or month to month. Which we just think fits very nicely, within a balanced portfolio.
Bob Simpson: And we agree with that now, as an investor, how is an investor who's looking to do something within the 60, 40 and the fixed income part of their portfolio, how are they going to benefit versus traditional investments?
Michael Scott: Yeah, look, we'll, and you'll probably hear this from me, throughout our conversation, but look, we're, we're building an all weather asset class.
So there's no concept of, timing the market, in private credit. We are, we're investing in senior secured loans, very bank like, risk like profile. And these are going to perform in both challenging times and good times. So, you know, often we say it's, it's not a super exciting, investment.
This is an investment that, that, can be quite boring. But we think boring is good.
Bob Simpson: Yep. And we look for boring in the fixed income part of the portfolio. You're taking much in the way of risk in other areas. So, you know, if you're investing in a private credit fund, what are the risks? And we'll go into more of this in more detail in a few minutes.
Michael Scott: Yeah, from a risk perspective, Bob, obviously, capital preservation is really important to us. We invest at the top of the capital structure. So like any investment, this is not a risk free investment, but, you know, I think your opening remarks was be the bank. And certainly we very much are the bank in, in the senior secured loans that we, we deploy.
So if you really think about, you know, lending at that top, you know, that first dollar in or the first dollar out, we're typically not extending past, call it 50 percent loan to value. So again, as we think about, you know, the macro climate will ebb and flow, you know, the economy will, be better or weaker at times, when you're investing at that top of the capital structure on a senior security basis.
You know, you, you. Generally speaking, have a significant lower risk profile than you would say in public equities.
Bob Simpson: Yeah, and we agree that loan to value, just explain because not everybody who listens to this understands loan to value.
Michael Scott: Yeah, so loan to value is when we think about, you know, it's, it's generally expressed as a percentage.
We look at our, our loan, say for example, we're lending, I borrow $1 and then we look at the value of our collateral. Okay. So generally speaking, if you are in that 50 percent loan to value range for every dollar that we would be advancing to a borrower, we would have at least 2 of collateral. Such that to the extent that there were, there was a hiccup, or there was some variability in the value of that collateral over time, you know, our, our capital would be preserved.
Bob Simpson: So, so Mike, now sort of, you know, thanks for take going through and answering those questions. I think that just up front gives everybody a pretty good idea of this. When we look at the private lending market versus the public market, what's the big difference?
Michael Scott: Sure. I mean, private lending is just non bank debt financing that doesn't trade in the public market.
So, You know, if you really think about Canadian borrowers today, they really only have three options for borrowing. One is private lending, which we'll talk about today, the second is to go to a Canadian bank, and the third, would be to access the public markets. You know, with, with public markets, meaning like the issuance of bonds and other publicly traded instruments.
So private lending is really just an alternative way for companies to borrow without going to one of the big Canadian banks, or accessing, the public markets. The challenge, with public debt though, is it's generally only available to very large corporate borrowers and this is mainly due to minimum issue in size.
So, you know, often this can be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. So it's just that the public markets. Really are out of reach for a lot of Canadian companies. While on the other hand, you know, private debt is a lot more accessible. I mean, depending on the fund, you can have, you know, minimums as low as a million dollars in the private lending space.
So the range of companies that can access private lending, is significantly broader than that of the companies, that can access the public markets. You know, I think the other component of private lending is that it often can be a lot more customized to a specific board's needs. The public markets can be quite rigid in terms of the types of structures that can be issued within that market.
Whereas the private lending market is a very customized, very bespoke, flexible market. So it's both issue in size and, and flexibility.
Bob Simpson: Yeah. So where would you say your sweet spot is on loan size?
Michael Scott: Look, we're, we're very much a mid market Canadian lender. So, you know, we will, we will guide you to, you know, loans in that 20 to 50 million range.
You know, we're typically the, the, the lower threshold is really just a function of, you know, our diligence process, our underwriting process just really isn't conducive given its intensity to, you know, smaller, loan sizes, but also as you go lower down on those loan sizes, you tend to start lending to smaller businesses.
And ultimately your risk profile in a smaller business, is just significantly higher.
Bob Simpson: So Mike, what makes your firm different, the approach that you take to private lending, what makes you different than the other firms in this space?
Michael Scott: Yeah, it's a, it's a very good question, Bob. And one, I think we could answer in a number of different facets. But, look, I think, to keep it simple, it all comes down to the portfolio that we build for our investors.
I. e. sourcing attractive opportunities, where we can lend to establish businesses, where our investors capital is protected and we can generate an attractive risk adjusted return on that capital. So you know, how do we do that? We think there's three key ingredients. Number one, deal sourcing. So how we find investment opportunities.
Number two, underwriting. So that's how we diligence, how we dig into opportunities before we actually advance a dollar, or, or we close an investment. And then number three, you know, the monitoring and oversight of that. That loan post closing. So, you know, really, as you think about the 1st 1 deal sourcing at SAF, we have 7 partners, all of us with prior experience in banking, extensive networks across Canada, allows us to build a very large funnel of investment opportunities.
You know, this really allows us to be highly selective, and focus on the most attractive risk return opportunities. But it also, because we see such a high level of deal flow, you know, we have a very good sense of the market and where we're best served to, invest our investor's capital. So that's how we source transactions, which we think is key.
Bob Simpson: I was going to say the funnel is really important, isn't it?
Michael Scott: The funnel is incredibly important. Yeah. We, we always say like the, the bigger funnel that we can, we can build allows us to cherry pick the best opportunities at the very top. And then once we pick those, you know, underwriting, which is the second kind of key ingredient, is, is really, you know, the core part of our process.
We have an incredibly deep team here at SAF. We have a very highly structured, very rigorous underwriting process. You know, I would encourage you to go onto our website. You can see we have over 35 professionals. We have a deep team. We're truly indexed to professionals and we do leverage the entire team as we screen and ultimately underwrite closed new investments.
You know, we firmly believe. This level of rigor is, is key to our underwriting process, but specifically around preservation of capital, as well as our ability to consistently generate, attractive risk adjusted returns. And then lastly, number three is on the monitoring and oversight because we have a very deep team, we're able to be incredibly hands on with management.
Everything we do is direct lending. So we have direct access to management teams, direct access to shareholders, the board, customers, etc. of the companies that we lend to. So we've been able to, acquire extensive experience in managing, various different challenging situations. The reality is, not every investment goes in a straight line.
There will be hiccups from time to time and, you know, that's an important aspect to keep in mind. And it's incredibly important that we fully understand the business upon making an investment decision. And then we're tenacious, on the monitoring and oversight post closing to ensure that, you know, any potential performance challenges are addressed.
So look a lot there, but to summarize, it's how we build a portfolio, how we find deals, how we diligence and underwrite them, and then how we tightly manage those investments post closing.
Bob Simpson: Right. And the depth of your team. You know, that's the one thing that we're finding in the private lending area is you are getting new firms, but they don't, you know, they haven't, they don't have the depth of the portfolio.
They don't have the experience when things go wrong. And that's really where you earn your money, isn't it? When things go a little bit sideways, that, that, that's a lot of work, isn't it?
Michael Scott: The, yeah, the depth and the experience of the team is key. Again, not everything goes in a straight line. You're going to have hiccups, being very proactive and being able to roll up your sleeves is key.
And, you know, we think that ability to be active or reactive though, is also, if you have the right skills and experiences on your team, it is an avenue to significantly reduce, you know, risk.
Bob Simpson: So we talked about the funnel and corporate borrowers that are coming in. Why are they choosing SAF group instead of just going to the bank?
And you've explained the banks have less appetite for some of these loans right now. But you know, do they favor the banks or would the experience in working with a group like SAF Group be beneficial to the corporate borrower?
Michael Scott: Yeah, it's a great question cause I think, investors often mistakenly assume, the borrowers look to private debt solutions, only in higher leverage, or higher risk situations.
Bob Simpson: Yeah.
Michael Scott: Which is not the case. I mean, certainly in the past, there's been, you know, more borrowers that would have fallen into that higher risk category, specifically within Canada's private credit landscape. Although, you know, in the landscape today, there are more and more prime borrowers that are turning, within Canada that are turning to private lenders simply to get access to debt capital, to support growth and expansion of their business.
And it's a, it's a longer winded answer, Bob, but, to try to simplify it, you know, the, the key trend today in the Canadian landscape, is a reduced appetite from the Canadian banks, as they shift away from a focus on generating interest income towards a bias to service and fee income. This is an entire topic in itself.
We could spend hours talking to the nuance and I'm sure we'll get into it a bit deeper here, but you know, the punchline is that the Canadian banks are just starting to feel the impact of increased capital requirements, which is making capital more scarce and expensive for them. And as you, you know, make capital more scarce and more expensive and recall when a bank makes a loan, they have to put capital against that loan.
It impacts their profitability. So what we're seeing the banks do in reaction is, given the scarcity of capital, the cost of capital, they have to become a lot more efficient in terms of where they allocate that capital. And so they're allocating that capital in places where it's, it's less capital intensive, and it's more profitable.
And as a result, they're reducing their, their appetite for borrowers that just want loans. You know, if a borrower is only going to generate interest income, that's less attractive to them than a boar that's going to, generate interest income, but they're also going to be doing their FX hedging, their cash management, investment banking advisory fees.
And they have all of the, the shareholders, you know, you know, personal wealth, et cetera. So, you know, those kinds of credit only boards. And those are those boards that we talk about in that 20 to 50 million segment that, that core kind of Canadian bid market company. There is the one that are impacted the most, that are looking to options, which brings them, to us, right?
Bob Simpson: One of the things I like to say is that financial services, especially the banks, they don't move quickly, but once you understand the trend that they're moving in, it's a pretty clear picture, you know, and I, I look back that when did, when did the shift to providing more of the services happen, you know, and, and I, I worked at Nesbit when we were taken over by the bank of Montreal, that was 1986.
So that trend has really been going on for quite a while. And I think they're seeing the profitability of, of doing something that works. So I think, I, you know, I, I agree with your thoughts there. How do you, as a, as a firm, you know, your job really in managing a fund is to generate returns for clients.
How do you do that? You know, what's, what's a return profile look like for an individual investor?
Michael Scott: Look, there's, there's no magic formula. You know, we, we generate returns almost identical to how the Canadian banks do. So if you think about, you know, as we make loans to companies, we're charging a spread over the prime rate.
You know, we typically are charging, you know, some form of upfront fee, we'll have some monitoring fees or a standby fee. You know, all of these fees and interests flow through, a hundred percent to our investors. So it's, you know, it's, it again, it's very much, how the banks, generate, returns for their sharehold.
You know, I think it is important to note though, that, you know, some higher risk funds in the market, will look for other return enhancements. So you will hear about, you know, some lenders that will seek out equity warrants or other equity sweeteners, that provide. You know, augment returns, you know, generally speaking, they're compensating for increased risk.
So as we think about, you know, the kind of the risk profile of a borrower that we're looking for here at SAF, you know, we're focused on those borrowers that are bank like, have bank like risk and have bank like return profiles. So we, you won't find equity warrants and other sweeteners in, in our private credit funds, they are, you know, straight, you know, fees and interest, very bank like, and generate, returns very similar to the banks.
Bob Simpson: Yep. So if you're doing, you know, you talked about prime plus, we're now in a environment where we're starting to see rate decreases. How's that going to affect the marketplace for private lending?
Michael Scott: Yeah, that's a very popular question. I would say, we did see some impact, here in Canada, as we started to see the risk free rate increase.
I mean, the private credit, market in Canada, although historically very different than what it is today, in terms of composition and opportunity set, much more niche historically. But look, as it relates to, you know, rates historically, the Canadian private credit market has been a fixed rate market.
Michael Scott: As we saw, the rapid rise in the risk free rate, the market has fully moved to a floating rate. I think that's also, as you look at, you know, the opportunity in Canada where, you know, more and more, bank like borrowers are moving into private credit. They are just more accustomed to borrowing on a floating rate, as they've, as they've experienced with the Canadian banks.
So look, all of the term sheets we issued today are floating rate. You know, we've been successful in negotiating floors. So we do participate, or have participated in the upside of the prime rate, with downside rate protection. You know, in terms of going forward, look, we don't have a crystal ball on rates.
We do think that we're, you know, in a declining rate environment. But, look, our focus is on structuring to protect our downside in all aspects. Rate is one of them. We do that through floors. We're not trying to time the market though. You're not going to see us flip back and forth on fixed and floating, you know, trying to figure out and, earn those kind of take risks to earn an extra 25 pips.
You know, the reality is our loans are typically, you know, call it two to three years in duration. And so pricing is being reset fairly frequently in any case.
Bob Simpson: Yep. So. As we look at private credit market, what are your concerns in the market today?
Michael Scott: Look, I think we're, we're very much in a new era for private credit, in Canada.
Our private credit market is 15 years behind our global peers. It's all because of the, the regulatory burdens that, you know, Canada has been good at avoiding. But, quite frankly, we have nowhere else to hide. And we've all heard of a Basel three and Basel four and other regulatory frameworks.
Canada's private credit market is very quickly catching up to our global peers. So look, I think there's going to be some very attractive opportunities for investors going forward. As our market here continues to expand and develop, you know, what concerns me, and us at SAF is, you know, they're, you know, historically private credit in Canada, and I'm talking kind of five plus years ago, had been a much more niche strategy.
And one that wasn't and one that isn't as deep as the opportunity set today. So I think where we've seen funds falter in the past is raising too much capital, raising too much capital too quickly. And when you do this, and that amount of capital you raise, exceeds the opportunity set and you're, you're, you're pressured to find a
place to put this capital work. You introduce risk into the system and you know, we always say here, it's easy to deploy capital. It's a lot harder to get it back. So, you know, the concern is, when you have too much capital availability is that you go off strategy or you go higher up the risk curve, to put those dollars to work.
And that's when you can run into problems. So look, I think we're fortunate today. As we look at funds like our fund, that's bank like they have much deeper opportunities to deploy capital. And so as we see more investor dollars flow into private credit, there's going to be, a very stable home for those dollars at, at the year.
Similar risk profiles, but, suffice it to say we're, we're very, very focused here at SAF on not just having discipline around how we deploy capital, but also around capital raising. You know, it's really important that, we match capital raising with deployment to ensure that we stay on strategy.
But it's not just, the cadence of that capital raising, but it's how we raise, how much we raise, when we raise, who we raise it from. Ensuring that we have a very long term perspective, and a patient approach when investing that capital. And I think that's key to generating, attractive risk adjusted returns over the long term.
Bob Simpson: Yeah. And we've noticed that in some other firms when they've raised a bunch of money and then a few loans came due and they ended up with major cash drag in their portfolio, but you want to really be careful, I think that, how you deploy and that you're not going to have too much money. You got to go find a place, take more risks just cause you got to do that.
So, yeah, I appreciate your thoughts on that. Sort of, as we wrap up here, let's, you know, the last of those five questions I threw at you at the beginning was what should an investor expect, to, what should the experience be like over the next two to three years? You know, what kind of returns are reasonable there?
Because, you know, at the end of the day, an investor has to, you know, and this is something I say all the time to investors, you should be trying to find the return that you need at the lowest possible risk that you can get. Right? And a lot of investors with low interest rates have turned to equity markets and they've seen volatility and good returns, but they're not comfortable with that.
But as we look over the, you know, short term 2 to 3 year horizon, where do you think? And a lot of it's based on where rates are, are and where they're going to go. And that's crystal ball stuff. But what do you see, what's reasonable for a longer term investor to expect in, in, investing money with SAF group?
Michael Scott: Sure. Yeah. Look, I think, you know, if you think about the gap that's being created by the banks as they're, you know, pulling capital from the mid market, I think that's really creating the opportunity set for investors today. And I think that's what really excites us, here at SAF, but, look, I think it's a very exciting time in the Canadian private credit landscape.
We're continuing to see, you know, the banks pull away again, our private credit market is 15 years behind our global peers. We're going to continue to see a scarcity of capital for mid market borrowers. I think that's pushing a lot of Canadian companies, into, you know, the private, the private, credit space.
And again, we're, you know, we're going to continue to generate. Above average, risk adjusted returns. Again, we're not chasing yield here. We're looking to preserve capital. You're going to see bank like returns, but bank like risk profile. Look, I think, I think the key at the end of the day is, you know, as we looked at other markets that have undergone this shift, again, that's the U. S., the UK, Australia, you name it, there's been this period of time as these regulatory constraints, become implemented where there is a supply gap of capital. And so there is a period of time where you will see outperformance. We very much feel like we're in that space today. The Canadian banks have pulled back.
Our private credit markets aren't as developed as they are in the U S and elsewhere, it's going to take some time for firms like ours to come into the space. And so I think in the next call it 18, 24, 36 months, potentially longer, it's going to be a very, very good opportunity, as our, our market evolves here, it continues to develop and expand, there will be outsized returns for investors.
Bob Simpson: Yep. So a good place for people to allocate part of their portfolio is into the private credit markets over the next two to three years. It's kind of what you're saying. So.
Michael Scott: Absolutely.
Bob Simpson: Yeah. So I feel good today. Three good questions and one interesting question that you, you know, that was your response to some of my questions there.
So I appreciate that. That makes me feel good. Mike, just final thoughts, looking forward, you know, looking at this discussion, what are the key points that you would just like people to walk away and say, yeah, I think I learned something today.
Michael Scott: Yeah. Look, I think it's a very exciting time in the Canadian private credit landscape. There's going to be, and there is today a very attractive opportunity. For investors, as our market continues to deepen and develop, you know, the 1 thing that, that we remind investors and you've heard me mention it today is, you know, we're, we're building an all weather portfolio.
We're not trying to time the market and certainly, as we think about the Canadian landscape and the opportunity set within Canada. You know, there isn't a, because of this, you know, regulatory burden and framework that's being adopted, we don't see this as a window. There's not a short period of time, for Canadian investors to invest in this asset class.
This is very much a permanent shift. This is an opening, of private credit in Canada. That's going to allow access to, Canadian investors, bank like risk profile, which they haven't seen in the private credit space in Canada, historically. So, you're going to, investors are going to have the opportunity to invest.
In a more, you know, bank like risk profile. So again, senior secured loans at the top, top of the capital structure. There are going to be low correlation to other asset classes again, because we're at the top of that cap structure. You know, you don't see a lot of volatility, in your loan to value.
And from a NAV perspective, all of our loans pay cash paying interest. So it You know, generates a very nice, stable, consistent cashflow yield. So, look, I think at the end of the day, you're going to have, an asset, an investment that's going to perform in both challenging times and good times.
Again, this is, a portfolio that is very actively managed by our team. And so we're, we're very excited. We think that, you know, it's a very good opportunity over the next number of years, to generate, cashflow. You know, outsized returns, as our private credit market here continues to develop.
Bob Simpson: Yeah, that's awesome. So just in closing, Mike, thanks for joining us today. That was fun.
Michael Scott: Thanks for having me, Bob. Appreciate the conversation.
Bob Simpson: Okay. Before making any investment decisions, it's crucial to consult a professional financial advisor to determine suitability. Full disclaimers are available on private debt and equity.
ca. Now, please do not forget to follow us on your preferred podcast platforms. Subscribe to our YouTube channel to stay updated on new episodes. If you're eager to learn more about today's topic, just reach out. We're there all the time. Glad to answer any questions that you send our way. You can, you can find our contact information on privatedebtandequity.ca.
So I am Bob Simpson. It's been my pleasure to guide you through this discussion today. Remember that knowledge empowers you to make. Well informed investment decisions and progress towards your financial objectives until we meet again. Just try to stay focused and disciplined on your financial journey.
That's really important. So have a great day.
